This is a continuation of yesterday's post.When
Webb's song first dropped, I started reading at various blogs where it had been discussed. There were some strong, intelligent discussions about the issue of homosexuality in the Church and about Webb's take on it. At one blog, a commenter wrote that he didn't think that hatred of homosexuals was a big deal among Christians. In a response to that comment, someone said that to really know, one would have to ask some gay Christians their perspective.
Reading that sparked a little something in my mind, so I decided to approach a couple of people that I know in real life who are either gay themselves or are a straight ally and still Christian. I will say up front that my sampling is ridiculously small and that they are in no way speaking for the entire gay Christian community, but only for themselves.
Tina has been my one of my best friends since about the first day of high school and is the person who has had the most profound impact on my thoughts. I've known Dustin for years through various church activities. I met Carol through
her blog and through Tina on Facebook. Carol was married to
Ray Boltz, who
came out about a year ago. Dustin & Tina are both Christians who are out, and Carol is a straight ally. I thank all of them for their candid responses to these questions and for allowing me (and you) the opportunity to put a human face on what is all too often just an “issue.”
1. Webb's song suggests that many Christians hate some based on their sexual orientation. Some have indicated that hatred from the church toward the GLBT population is not as rampant as he writes. Based on your experience, where does the truth lie? Tina: I have not experienced many Christians who have expressed literal hate GLBT individuals.
BUT, it FEELS like it.
There are so many lies and heartless messages out there, not to mention the suppression of positive GLBT info, that it feels like Christians are against GLBT people.
However, one-on-one, I have found most people caring and interested in having the opportunity to talk about faith and homosexuality.
Mostly, people are doing what they've been taught. They have been bombarded with misinformation and lies. (i have issues here with LEADERSHIP because they set the tone/course).
Additionally, b/c the GLBT community is usually invisible and trying to stay out of the line of fire, the Straight Community's prejudiced beliefs and fears go unchallenged.
Dustin: I don't believe there is hatred for the GLBT population among christians, but rather, a fear of the unknown. I think that the church sometimes uses it's influence as a scare tactic. Sincere christians don't hate - hatred is reserved for ignorant christians. As christians, we believe in something so incredibly intangible, and operate on blind faith, toward a deity that we cannot possibly understand or comprehend. I'm baffled by those christians that do not understand or cannot comprehend homosexuality, but will turn around and blindly give their life to God. It seems arrogant and antithetical that one can understand and comprehend God, but not me.
Carol: Based on MY experience, it is necessary to listen to the people who said, “I tried, and I know I’m gay.” They are telling you the truth. If they had ANY way to just fit in and be “normal” so that they didn’t have to leave loved ones, family, church, parents, etc., in order to live as themselves, they would. Most people find acceptance, and once they do, they are happier. But they still miss their kids, if they had them. They miss their “best friends” that they married, but can’t be married to any more. As far as hatred, it can range drastically. It can be vulgar, mean-spirited, and hateful. Some even cloak their words in niceties, but if they don’t accept that glbtqs are not choosing to be different than the majority, they are not believing the ones who are SAYING the truth from their own lives. (do you get that?) When you won’t believe someone who’s telling you the truth, what even is that?
2. I've heard a number of people say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." How have you seen that played out in real-life relationships?Tina: Not well.
Imagine that it was love the sinner, hate the heterosexuality.
Where are the lines? What do you hate? If you were straight in a gay world, how would your interactions with church, community and family of origin be affected if they (out of their interpretation of God's will) hated your heterosexuality? If you were in a relationship or had a family of your own, how would you feel if you were told that you needed to leave one another to be saved? ...especially when the physical sexual acts are only a small portion of how your life is lived?
Do they just hate it when you are literally having sexual relations? or do they hate your entire relationship? the loving? the commitment? your companionship? your kids? ...what?
Along those lines, how does that translate into equal rights? Is it Christian or American to deny insurance, benefits, protection, and equal status to GLBT individuals, families and children?
Dustin: Personally, I have experienced both hating the sin, loving the sinner, as well as, hating the sin, hating the sinner. I believe strongly in adversity, as I feel it helps us to reach truth - sometimes at price, but finding truth has never been easy.
Carol: I say, “I love you sinners, and I hate what you are doing to the ones who are not in sin.”
3. Have any of the negative comments about gays and lesbians ever caused you to doubt your faith? Did any of your own presuppositions about the sinfulness (or not) of homosexuality cause you any doubts about your faith?
Tina: Yes. Wait… more like, question.
That being said, I am a Questioner. So, this is not new.
What IS new is my questioning of The Church and The Leadership. …I come from a long line of ministers, and have had such good experiences with them, that I grew up idealizing those in leadership.
There's been a serious breech of trust for me with Authority, when I don't believe that those in charge are open to The Spirit. What else has been manipulated?
And, it's been seen over and over with treatment of women, african americans, etc.... this is just another round.
And, when "people of faith" are not open to listening and bearing one another's burdens; when they judge; when we still take advantage of the weak; when power is abused for the benefit of the few; when status quo becomes the mantra..... I wonder.
However, Jesus had similar issues with The Church.
I just feel bad b/c I think the Church is not living up to what it is meant to be.
Dustin: I have really never doubted my faith because of my homosexuality. We have constantly questioned the Bible, since it's inception. But, I often wonder why we as christians choose to uphold some doctrine, whilst ignoring others. For instance, the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination. But, in the last 1000 years, no one has been put to death for working on the Sabath, or for touching the skin of a pig (Monday Night Football). Now, of course, these doctrine are Old Testament, and may seem antiquated, but it just seems too convenient. If we are to ignore these Old Testament doctrines, then why in every Catholic and Protestant service in the world today, does the service begin with a reading from the Old Testament?
Carol: By the time that I got the negative comments (via blogs, etc. and e-mails to our website) I had made up my mind that being gay is not a sin. Nothing anyone said then did anything to change my mind, but it was hurtful in the early days when I’d get PERSONAL e-mails from those who were my friends, and they would claim that Ray didn’t try hard enough. They knew “this” ministry or “that one,” where change was possible. Yeah, right. Every time they said that I WISHED it was true, but I knew it was not. I can go back over the lyrics of Ray’s songs and see the evidence of Ray’s hope and prayers for change. I can look back and I knew Ray’s dedication to God, and I knew and KNOW that there was no way that he could have prayed more or believed more, or acted in a more “right” way. It hurt me a lot when these friends would claim they knew otherwise.
4. Is there any kind of comment that comes from "church people" that seems particularly hurtful?
Tina: Any statement along the lines of "The BIBLE says it's a sin, so there's nothing else to say."
Anything that implies that they KNOW the answers already, end of discussion.
Usually, this is said with a haughty know-it-all tone, to boot!
Dustin: Over and over I hear that I'm going to Hell, because I am homosexual. A lot of christians are somewhat arrogant and righteous - it's not our place to condemn others. I wish those individuals were confronted and condemned for their self-righteousness - that too, is a sin.
Carol: It is very hurtful when they assume that they know what my life is/was like. They assume that I had a painful life, when the fact is that I had a happy life, and I always felt loved. When they assume that to be gay means there is only one “lifestyle,” when in reality each person decides how to live – no matter if they are gay or straight. Most people don’t say things in person to me, but via e-mails and on blogs and blog comments. The e-mails that come directly to me go into two folders, marked “supportive” and “non-supportive.” Under non-supportive, there are two additional categories: stupid, and the other one is DOWNRIGHT MEAN.
5. Webb also suggests that people use debate about gay marriage as an excuse to avoid other things, like caring for the poor. Do you believe that this is accurate or do you feel that there are equal resources devoted to other issues and that evangelicals are wrongly accused of harping on GLBT issues?Tina: Here’s where I think it’s helpful. It does raise questions about how we interpret the Bible. If we are to follow the Bible literally, why do we not kill people for working on the Sabbath, Exodus 35:2. Why does Homosexuality get such fierce attention when it’s barely mentioned in the Bible? Yet, when you cut out the Bible’s references to The Poor, the Bible is literally left in shreds. (http://www.csec.org/csec/sermon/wallis_3410.htm) So, how do we choose the focal points of faith?
Secondly, how do we treat one another when we have differing perspectives? Are we quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger (James 1: 19, 20). Do we display the fruits of the Spirit, such as peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, self-control? Do we praise God with our tongues and at the same time curse men (James 3:9)? Is the old hymn true, that “They’ll know we are Christians by our love?”
Dustin: I don't think there is a lesser amount of energy spent toward other issues, but combating homosexuality seems to be much more tangible. We don't necessarily see the poor, homeless or elderly everyday. All of us could probably reach out and touch someone who is gay. The church is no position to deal with poverty, aging and homelessness - therefore, it must focus it's energy somewhere else. The easiest way to do this, is to dupe families of the church that have a son or daughter that is homosexual, into a false sense of security. The church will prey on the fears of the family, and that will, more often than not, drive away that son or daughter.
Carol: Preachers will use scare tactics to raise money, keep their flock in line, or try to draw lines about who will and will not get to heaven. I read Dobson newsletters (that they still send me because I wrote for information years ago) just to see if he’s misconstruing the truth. He is. I believe that it’s more effective in fundamentalist churches to scare people into giving, and they convince most of the congregations that there’s a homosexual agenda that’s going to take over the children, ruin families and take over the country. How false! GLBTQs just want equal rights. There is a booklet from Soulforce about Focus on the Family, and it quotes MANY words directly from radio broadcasts and written statements that vilify glbtqs. Also the book by Mel White,
"Religion Gone Bad: The Hidden Dangers of the Religious Right." LOTS of quotes from FoF, Jerry Falwell, and James Kennedy, I think it is. Read them.
6. (This was for Carol only) Knowing that divorce is another big hot-button issue in the church (and would naturally be another "sanctity of marriage" statement), did you find that you received more negative response for being divorced, or because you have chosen to support Ray in coming out?Carol: I got an e-mail the other day from a guy whose wife and he divorced. She’s remarried, but he is realizing he’s gay – that is, he’s coming to terms with it. NOW his family, friends, and church have turned against him. When I FIRST went to one friend, K., when the news was really new (that Ray had told me he was gay). This girlfriend was my maid of honor. I was crying and upset – didn’t know WHAT I was going to do. She folded her arms across her chest, and frowning, said to me, “You aren’t going to get a divorce, are you?” Then two days later she had a list of Bible verses that she wanted to “go over” with me. I told her to put away her list – because I had done NOTHING WRONG. And I said I didn’t know what to do, but I was very, very hurt and she just had no compassion for where I was coming from. She’s less judgmental now, but I have talked until I’m blue in the face, and she still doesn’t get it.
7. Is there anything you can share from your experience that can help straight people in the church be more genuinely loving to our GLBT brothers and sisters?Tina: Find a GLBT person or Straight Ally, take them to coffee and LISTEN.
That would be a great start.
Dustin: Let's look at it this way: if the church truly wanted homosexuals to be part of it's family, whether or not because of an ulterior motive, then why drive them away? Why is my "sin" worse than yours? If a convicted murderer walked into a church, he would be welcomed much more openly than I. Let's face it - the church can be somewhat over-zealous, and misplace it's convictions. I don't understand why the church has such a fear of homosexuals. Why is the church so threatened by us? I honestly have no advice for changing minds within the church. If I can't understand why the church has disdain for me, then I can't offer a solution for a more loving church family.The only thing I can do is surround myself with a church family that loves and accepts me, and will allow me to worship with my partner. Really, it's a simple request......
Carol: There are two things that I had to change from my church teachings. One, that being gay is not a choice. Two, I had to reframe my literalist view of the Bible. This was a HUGE change, and it took work to do it. It meant I had to really decide if I believed, and yet could reverse MANY things I had taken as fact, when it was a lot of opinion.
I welcome discussion about these responses, but again, I must insist that it be respectful. I will delete any comments that I find to be inflammatory or abusive.
